Brant Secunda is a Huichol shaman who leads a variety of retreats and workshops for Dance of the Deer Foundation. He created the Foundation to help support the Huichol Indians in keeping their shamanic traditions alive and to bring their wisdom into modern lives. He was first interviewed by Dream Network in 1993 (V12, No. 4). We spoke with him again in 1999, the day before Thanksgiving.
DNJ: Nice to meet you, Brant! It's been about six years since you last spoke with Dream Network. In addition to leading retreats and workshops, what have you been up to in the intervening years?
BRANT: Well, that's pretty much it. I'll probably do the same thing for the rest of my life. We go to different places. We started going to Alaska, which is definitely a place of dreaming. It's so pristine and beautiful. It's just so pure and that makes it a really good place for dreams and dreaming, and being. There's a certain quiet and peace there.
DNJ: The workshop you're doing now (Nov. 1999), 'Earth & Sky: the Spirit of the Huichol Shamanism,' is in Mexico on the Pacific Ocean. Can you talk a little bit about what this retreat will encompass, as an example? It's part of your annual pilgrimage to the ocean, isn't it?
BRANT: Right. We believe that the Gods came out of the ocean and began a journey eastward from the Pacific Ocean to the Atlantic Ocean. And during this original journey, the Gods were dreaming the whole journey and providing guidance about where they were supposed to go. Grandfather Fire would sing some of the sacred songs... and as he sang, the world was formed. They would leave prayer arrows at various places and try to dream about these beautiful places of power to which they had traveled. Dreaming was definitely integrated into the whole process of the transformation of the Gods, their own and also of the transformation of human beings who would come in the future.
We also then go to places of power, like the Pacific Ocean. We say we're a mirror, or a reflection of the Gods, of the Ancient Ones. We return to these places of power so that we can dream and try to have dreams similar to those the Gods dreamed when they were at these places. And also, we dream for our own life; the personal processes that we go through in our lives. It's a beautiful cosmology.
DNJ: It sounds wonderful, the idea of the Gods dreaming the world into being, into existence, and then...
BRANT: ...and then we follow. We're a reflection of the Ancient Ones, the Gods. We are a Mirror of them and we follow in their footprints.
DNJ: ... and we're trying to bring our own world into being with dreams...
BRANT: Right. Exactly! Trying to bring the past, present and future together through the dreamtime.
DNJ: How much of your focus is on dreams in your retreats and workshops?
BRANT: Dreaming and working with dreams is a big part of what we do at the Dance of the Deer Foundation. And also in my own work, because dreams are so important, you know. Every morning we do dream exercises: how to recall dreams, how to have better dreams at night. My own personal story is also connected to dreams (see V12 #4). Dreams are so important on many levels.
DNJ: I see that Doña Josefa, your adopted grandmother and 'Singing Shaman,' is part of this retreat with you. What does she contribute?
BRANT: Well, she is singing the chants of the Gods, reliving the pilgrimages of the Gods and going into trance through Sacred Songs. Don Jose was a Singing and a Healing Shaman and he taught Doña Josefa and myself. He trained us in that way. Practicing this helps us to have more visions and better dreams at night. It makes us a more complete person.
DNJ: I noticed a quote [in your last DNJ interview] where you said that dreams "are a reemergence of our life." Could you amplify that a bit?
BRANT: Well, one way to say it is that we die at night, a little death; then we are reborn in the morning. The rebirth is our dreaming, the process of our dreams. So that reemergence means reemergence into this reality, into this world from a spirit world, from a hidden world, from a hidden universe. And the dream world connects this world with the hidden through what we call a 'Nierika,' a doorway, or a hidden passageway that starts from our heart and connects us to all of creation, which includes the dream world.
DNJ: I'd like to touch on the theme of this issue: Animals in dreams.
BRANT: Great. Well, you came to the right place. (laughs) The deer is the main power animal of Huichol shamanism. That's why we have our foundation as the Dance of the Deer Foundation. The deer is the symbol for our heart: our intuition, our higher self, the part of us that is connected to the dream world. The deer is the Lord of Dreams. And the deer is also our heart.
The role or responsibility of a human being is to dream his or her own reality into being, and to connect with the spirits, whether it be a hidden world or another, hidden universe. Deer is the principle ally of Huichol shamans, and also of the Huichol people. Deer understands everything of the Gods and of the people, because he is our heart. So he is the link... an intermediary. Almost like Jesus would be seen as the messenger of God, the deer is seen as a messenger of the Gods and Goddesses of the spirit world. He represents our souls, our inner world.
DNJ: And do you have a trance dance during your ceremonies - the 'Dance of the Deer' itself.
BRANT: Yes, one which connects people to the deer. We pray and go into trance while we do the dance. Deer dance is a very important part of Huichol tradition. The deer is seen as our soul, our inner world, our inner environment.
And then you have the outer world, or Spirit. And the animal that helps us connect with our Spirit world-the outer realm-is Eagle. Eagle comes from the top of our head, from the fontanel... to the sky.
DNJ: Ohhh...
BRANT: That's beautiful, isn't it? Rabbit is also sacred; Squirrel-they are all guardians of the earth, the fire all the different elements. Every animal is sacred for the Huichols. But the two main ones that the People will communicate to help them dream, to help them to connect with the spirit world... are the Deer and the Eagle.
DNJ: So, if an individual has a dream of a deer or of an eagle, it's particularly auspicious?
BRANT: It's like a shaman calling. They are being called. Now other sacred animals are the Ocelot, Pumas, Mountain Lions, Jaguars; these are sacred animals that are connected to the element of fire. So, if somebody wants wisdom, they try to get through these animals. You might not actually see a Puma in your real life, so you try to dream of one. You try to access information through the dream world from these animals. They are to help you connect with the wisdom of Grandfather Fire and with consciousness itself. These animals help to make one fearless. Because, you know, in many dreams, we are afraid. Well, the power of the Lions and Tigers help a human being to go through fears on all levels, whether they be spiritual fears, or just the practical fears of everyday life.
DNJ: Fire is very important in the Huichol tradition and you do have a ceremony, do you not, where every morning you speak to the fire, speak to the fire and share your dreams? Is that a part of your retreats and workshops as well?
BRANT: Yes, that's a big part. Learning to develop a personal kinship to the fire. For people to develop their own personal relationship with the fire... telling their dreams to the fire, learning to take the light from the fire into their hearts to help empower them. And so we really emphasize this at all of our gatherings.
DNJ: That's something that people can take back with them, I'm sure, because we all have candles...
BRANT: Yes The Huichols will use candles, too; especially during the rainy season. They'll light a candle inside their house, or in their temple and they'll pray with the candle. The candle is part of Grandfather Fire.
DNJ: Do you think [the workshops and retreats] are making an impact in the larger culture? When people go back to their regular lives, do you feel that it is making a difference in how people are relating to the earth, to nature and to the spirit realm?
BRANT: I hope so. You know, I've dedicated my whole life to helping transform people. I also work with the World Health Organization in Europe. I'm trying to make a difference. When people go home, it's more difficult. So we provide different practices that they are able to integrate into their every day lives when they leave a retreat. It's not just an experience and then forgotten, but rather they can use these practices in their every day life when they go home.
DNJ: One final question. Given that we're talking now in 1999, and this interview is going to come out in the year 2000 -whether or not that's the new millennium, we'll leave it up to other people to debate-but all the 9's will roll over to zeros, and zero is certainly a number of transformation. The question I want to ask is connected with that transition, because we have all of this hype about what will or will not happen, the millennial apocalyptic groups, y2k, etc...
BRANT: Well, I don't think there's anything like that going to happen. Remember, we had that also with the Harmonic Convergence. It was somewhat the same thing, where everybody thought the earth would start doing a tap dance. I don't think that will happen. But what will happen-it's already started to happen-is that it is a powerful and accelerated time of transformation is taking place. You can see it in the Dream Network; people are becoming more interested in their dreams and that's a good sign. I believe it's a powerful time right now, that people are really feeling change in the air. It's exciting to be alive and be a part of the transformation that is definitely happening all around the planet.
DNJ: Brant, I am so glad that we had an opportunity to speak! Thanks again. And perhaps I'll see you in my dreams one of these nights?
BRANT: That would be great.
